Tamsin Kaplan is a shareholder, employment lawyer, and business litigator with Davis Malm, the ILN’s member firm for Massachusetts. In this episode, Lindsay and Tamsin discuss the importance of corporate housekeeping for employment law, what makes having an employment lawyer on your side as a business so essential, and her very hidden talent!
You can listen to the podcast here, or we’ve provided a transcript of the highlights below.
Lindsay: Hello, and welcome to the Law Firm ILN-telligence Podcast. I am your host, Lindsay Griffiths, executive director of the International Lawyers Network. And our guest this week is Tamsin Kaplan with Davis, Malm & D’Agostine in Boston. Tamsin, welcome. We’re really happy to have you with us.
Tamsin: Good morning, Lindsay. Great to talk to you.
Lindsay: Great to talk to you, too. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself and your practice and your firm?
Tamsin: Well, I’ve been practicing law for over 30 years, and I’m with Davis, Malm now for almost 13. Davis, Malm in Boston is a general business firm. We have a diverse platform and can meet pretty much every business need that our clients present, of course, with the help of ILN when we have international issues.
I am in the employment law group. I’m an employment lawyer and litigator. I also do some general litigation in addition to my employment practice. And I also serve as a general counsel occasionally to nonprofits because my history before going to law school a zillion years ago was working with nonprofit management. So, I still like to keep my fingers in that as well.
Lindsay: That’s very cool. Awesome. All right, so let’s dive into our questions. What would you say is your biggest challenge at the moment, and how are you working to overcome that?
Tamsin: Well, good question. And the answer to my biggest challenge at the moment is the same as my biggest challenge forever as an employment lawyer, which is that it is very hard to get business clients focused on preventive measures, what I call risk management.
And I understand that it’s never on the front burner until it’s on the front burner. So, getting my clients to update their employment policies, to review their handbooks, to revise and make sure that their employment contracts are current, it’s just really hard to get people to focus on that.
And so, therefore, my motto, Lindsay, is get smart or get sued. Because what happens is companies have employees, they don’t put the time into making sure that their policies and practices are consistent with current law and the requirements that they must meet, and then something goes wrong because they haven’t done that work and they’re not compliant and they end up getting sued. So that’s my motto, get smart or get sued.
A lot of times people get sued first and then they get smart, meaning that they have to deal with a legal claim from an employee, and then they realize how important it is to engage in risk management behaviors. So that’s been my problem for the whole time I’ve been practicing, and I don’t suspect it’s going to go away anytime soon.
Lindsay: Well, that’s why people need lawyers, right?
Tamsin: That’s right. That’s exactly right.
Lindsay: And I think that’s what I’ve often seen. I think cross your fingers is a lot of people’s legal strategy, and as I’m sure you’ve seen, that’s not really effective.
Tamsin: Right. Right. I’m not sure it’s a strategy, Lindsay.
Lindsay: No, you’re right. You’re right.
Tamsin: It’s a lack of strategy.
Lindsay: That’s right. That’s right. So how do you combat that other than educating your current clients?
Tamsin: Well, that’s it, educating, reaching out. At our firm, we do these E-alerts, email alerts. We try to make them very succinct, very clear that this is a change in the law, review your handbook, call us to take a look at your, whatever it is, your non-disparagement and confidentiality provision, your restrictive covenants such as non-competes or non-solicitation. Whatever it is that the law is doing to change, we reach out to individual clients. We send E-alerts.
As I said, it’s always the challenge. And I understand why businesses have limited resources and their focus is on what needs to be done at the moment. It’s difficult to focus on preventive measures, what I call housekeeping, housekeeping stuff. But it comes back to bite you if you don’t do it.
Lindsay: That’s so true.
Tamsin: Also, frankly, this is not a solution, but it’s another reason this is important, which I talk to my clients about, which is morale, employee morale. If there’s confusion about policies, if there’s not a place you can go where everyone understands this is the place to go to answer your questions about your employment, about your rights and obligations as an employee, and that that place is a place where it’s clear and easy, user-friendly, then it can create frustration.
Lindsay: Absolutely. And I think the job hopefully of a labor lawyer is to simplify that for the employer and the employees because sometimes the language of the law can make it really complex.
Tamsin: Right, exactly, and that is our job being in a way to translate. I always say the main thing I learned, or maybe the only thing I learned in law school was to read because we had to. Boy, did we read. I mean, I would sit and read for 10 hours at a time getting ready for a class sometimes. But being a good reader is a skill. And we understand the laws, we understand the common law, the statutory law, and we’re good readers, and then we can translate into simple terms for our clients what they need to know and what they need to do.
Lindsay: Absolutely. And I think these days, it used to be that lawyers were really just about the law itself and doing the legal work, but now you really are business partners for your clients, and that is a huge piece of what makes you valuable.
Tamsin: That is so true. And one of the things that’s very gratifying is when you’ve had a practice as long as mine, when your clients come back to you over and over, over the years, you’re the one they think of to pick up the phone and ask that question, or when something’s blown up and they need help. It is being a business partner, and that’s a gratifying part of this job. I love this job. I think it’s a great job.
Lindsay: I love that. I love to hear that. That’s wonderful.
Tamsin: I was at the hairdresser recently. The hairdresser said, “Oh, you’re a lawyer.” He looks at me like he was sorry, and he’s like, “Oh, all my clients who are lawyers, they hate it.” I was like, “What? I love it.” This has been such a great journey for me. It was such a good journey.
Lindsay: That’s wonderful. That’s wonderful. I love to hear … I love it when lawyers love their jobs, and I think almost everyone in the ILN that I talk to really loves their work as a lawyer.
Tamsin: You know, I think that’s right. Everyone I’ve met is really enthusiastic about their work. Yes, it’s true, and that’s a wonderful thing. That’s something that helps you be good at what you do, obviously.
Lindsay: Absolutely, because then you’re passionate about continuing to learn and continuing to advocate for your clients and always figuring out what the next best solution is.
Lindsay: Yes. So, talk-
Tamsin: You’re invested and you have those relationships that you care about.
Lindsay: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, talk to us a little bit about the current state of the market and what that means for your clients.
Tamsin: Interest rates are high, and therefore, there are fewer corporate deals, there are fewer corporate deals, there are fewer startups starting at this moment. We’ve certainly seen the rise in interest rates affecting our clients’ businesses, real estate acquisitions, et cetera. So inevitably that impacts how much our clients are doing, how much they’re engaging in new business, acquiring new businesses, creating new businesses, and therefore just how much legal work they need.
We’ve had an amazing year this year, and it’s great. It’s wonderful to be able to say that, but I’m concerned. And I think there’s a general concern among business people and lawyers in the States about how we’re going to start 2024 and going forward.
Lindsay: Yeah, I agree with you. A lot of countries feel that way and not just the US, and I’m curious to see how 2024 is going to start as well. I think it’s made people very cautious for the fourth quarter of this year, and I think that’s why a lot of people are holding off on doing deals. Because I’ve asked that question of a lot of our M&A lawyers, is it that the deals aren’t there, or people are waiting? And it’s more that people are waiting.
Tamsin: Right. Right. But interest rates are going up again, so …
Lindsay: Yes. Which is not great.
Tamsin: No, it definitely has a chilling effect on business, no question.
Lindsay: It’s true.
Tamsin: I mean, it makes it so much more expensive to do anything.
Lindsay: That’s right. That’s right. And I’m sure you’ve seen this too in the labor market, but every industry has been hit by this war for talent, and it’s making it very difficult to find good people. And I’m sure that’s making employment packages very difficult as well, especially at higher executive levels.
Tamsin: Yes, I feel executives have been getting paid a lot of money for a long time.
Lindsay: That’s true. That’s true.
Tamsin: So, the incremental difference doesn’t seem to necessarily be affecting my clients that much, and I don’t think they’re balking at that. But I know that there’s been a lot of competition for associates in the market here in Boston, and I don’t know if that’s true elsewhere. Actually, I think we did talk about that when I was at the ILN conference in Rio at the end of May.
We’ve been so, so blessed this year with amazing new talent. I’m just thrilled. I’m knocking on wood because we lost a wonderful employment associate who we were expecting to become a partner. He had twins. His life changed, and he took an in-house counsel job, which I understand. Being a litigator and being in a private firm has certain pressures that are more difficult when you have a young family.
So, I was concerned because he was our main, really talented senior employment associate. But we hired somebody in April. Her name is Michelle Cassorla. She is fantastic. She’s a really, really talented person and lawyer and an experienced employment practitioner. So, I’m just really happy. We have a great group of associates here. It makes all the difference.
Lindsay: That’s wonderful.
Tamsin: As you’re more senior, you have to delegate to the younger lawyers.
Lindsay: Absolutely. Absolutely. And you start to think about succession and looking to the future, and for all of us, you start to wonder what’s going to be next. And when you do have the confidence in that future generation, it makes you feel really good about what you have happening at your firm.
Tamsin: Absolutely. And at Davis, Malm, you probably know this about our firm, people stay forever. So, people we bring in as associates who are a good fit are likely going to be partners down the road. And those are the partners we want, the folks who have come up and are part of our family because the way we run this place is literally around the table. It’s very democratic and everyone’s involved. And so, we want to bring up our associates to become partners, to become part of the leadership.
Tamsin: So, we’re extremely optimistic about that.
Lindsay: That’s wonderful.
Tamsin: It is great.
Lindsay: So, what would you say is the biggest area that’s related either to the practice of law or your practice, the labor practice in particular, that you’re curious about and why?
Tamsin: I guess two things. First of all, I know this is on everyone’s mind, AI, artificial intelligence. How is that going to affect our practices? How is that going to affect our clients’ businesses? We don’t know. It’ll be interesting to see this develop.
I think in the employment area, not only getting our work done and what tools will be available is going to be an issue, but I suspect that there are also going to be a lot of performance issues, disciplinary issues coming up by use or misuse of AI. We’ll see how that unfolds.
Another thing that I love about being an employment lawyer is how there are a lot of developments in employment law. So, for example, we in Massachusetts have a weekly lawyer’s newspaper, Mass Lawyer’s Weekly. I’m sure that’s the same in many states and jurisdictions. And inevitably, the headlines are about new employment law, new cases, new laws, new statutes and regulations. And so, I’m looking forward to seeing what’s next.
There’s always something new. Just today, we’re sending out an electronic alert, an E-alert about a development in our Paid Family and Medical Leave Act here in Massachusetts, and how people get paid, and how much they can get paid, and they can take PTO, vacation time, sick time and use that to top off the benefit that is available from the state for medical and family leave.
I mean, that’s huge. That’s an incredible development. We didn’t have any state-funded paid medical and family leave until 2021 in Massachusetts, and most states don’t have anything still. So, this is an example of a new development that’s really significant in people’s lives.
And it works like unemployment in that there’s sort of a payroll tax. There’s an amount that is paid in, and then the government has a fund. And the government, the Massachusetts government taps into that fund to provide people with pay based on a calculation that’s a portion of their usual wages, if they’re taking leave because they’re sick, because they have to care for a family member with a serious health condition, if they’re bonding with a new baby, et cetera.
So, stuff like that is happening all the time. I don’t envy my real estate partners. They’re still citing law from, I don’t know, 1922 or something. So that’s one of the fun things about employment law that I’m curious about every day.
Lindsay: That’s very cool. Yes, it’s always funny when we have various group discussions and I’m always asking the real estate lawyers, “Okay, what can we discuss?” And they’re like, “We don’t know. Nothing changes.” And the labor lawyers sent me 12 topics because there’s always something new to discuss.
Lindsay: It is very interesting.
Tamsin: It’s an exciting area to be in.
Lindsay: And the corporate lawyers are the same, they’re like, “Nothing changes.” But inevitably, the corporate lawyers find something to discuss. But it’s very funny because yes, the labor lawyers, there’s always something new that’s fun and interesting. Yes, that’s-
Tamsin: By the way, Lindsay, the way I think of labor versus employment is, and this is a pretty typical kind of distinction, is that labor is more dealing with unions, at least in the United States.
Tamsin: And that may be different in other countries. And employment is more typically dealing with non-unionized workers.
Lindsay: Interesting. Okay. That is a good distinction to make because I’m not sure that every one of our listeners will know that. So that is a good distinction for people to know. And our group covers both, and we probably have both sets of lawyers involved in that.
Tamsin: I would think so. And many lawyers do both.
Lindsay: Yes, of course. Right. Great. Thank you for that. So, switching gears a little bit, can you tell us something interesting about yourself that most people don’t know?
Tamsin: That’s a tough one. Probably the main thing is my standup comedy career. You didn’t know that.
Lindsay: I didn’t know that.
Tamsin: I have not done standup now for, oh gosh, like five years. But I started doing it because the Women’s Bar Foundation here, which is a nonprofit that provides free legal services to people who don’t have the ability to pay, specifically supports women and children, they have a fundraiser every year, and they started doing this comedy competition for lawyers. And so, I went a couple of times, I was like, “I could do that.” So, I threw my hat in the ring, and I competed for the first time in 2014, and I won.
Lindsay: Oh my gosh.
Tamsin: It was the first time I ever did standup and I won. I was the funniest lawyer in Massachusetts for 2014.
Tamsin: Yes. And people say, “Then tell me something funny.” And the thing is, at least for me, doing standup is you have to prepare and prepare and prepare. I mean, I wrote these things, I tweaked and tweaked and tweaked. I practiced and practiced until they were perfect one-liners. So, I don’t think I’m actually that funny in real life.
Lindsay: I’m sure you are funny in real life also.
Tamsin: I don’t know, but I was the funniest lawyer. I don’t know, Lindsay. But I was the-
Lindsay: That’s amazing.
Tamsin: And then I performed again at the same fundraiser in 2015 and handed off the Golden Rubber Chicken Award to the next winner. And then they did an all-star showcase in 2017, so I was invited back. That is the extent of my standup career.
Lindsay: That’s Amazing.
Tamsin: So, it was really, really fun. It was a great experience. It’s an amazing feeling to be up on stage. There must’ve been, the first time I performed, like 400 people in the room, and you can feel kind of the wave of laughter move across the room. Some of the jokes are right away people get, sometimes there’s just a split second before everybody gets it, and then there’s this wave of increasing laughter and applause. It’s so cool. It’s so much fun.
Lindsay: That’s amazing.
Tamsin: It was a really great experience, which I will never do again. I’m definitely retired.
Lindsay: I was just thinking we should do an ILN talent show because so many people have so many interesting talents that are not … they’re not necessarily complementary because some people play musical instruments, and some people-
Lindsay: And you have a very secret standup comedy talent that nobody knew about, but that maybe we can get you to reprise it.
Tamsin: We’ll talk offline.
Tamsin: Sure about that?
Lindsay: That’s amazing. That’s really amazing. Who has been your biggest mentor over your career?
Tamsin: Many people have been wonderful mentors, which I’m very, very grateful for. In particular, I always say I wouldn’t have a career without the Women’s Bar Association. We have a wonderful Women’s Bar Association here in Massachusetts, very supportive. After I left law firm life and was on my own for a while, which I did for 11 years when my kids were young, I got all of my work from female mentors and colleagues.
And one in particular, Loretta Attardo became a mentor. She’s a local longtime labor and employment lawyer, and now she’s a neutral. She does all arbitrations and mediations. She’s just been amazing. She also does a lot of workplace, or used to do a lot of workplace investigations, which is something that’s a big part of my practice. And so, she’s been my go-to person.
And I have another story about a mentor whose name was David Rapaport, and he passed away in 2012. No, January of … Gosh, now, I can’t remember. Yes, 2012. January of 2012. I don’t know if I’ve ever told you this story, Lindsay, he was a very well-respected employment lawyer and litigator in Massachusetts, and he was the president of the Massachusetts Lawyers Association. Employment Lawyers? Oh, MELA, Massachusetts Employment Lawyers Association.
And I just loved the way he ran meetings, and I loved the way he thought, and so I kind of glommed onto him. I became this barnacle on David Rapaport to learn everything I could from him. And years passed and he ended up at Davis, Malm, long before I joined Davis, Malm. And he then very sadly, got very sick. It was like he had quadruple bypass surgery and had cancer, and his wife left him all in six months’ time. It was just terrible.
Tamsin: And I remember spending time with him, and he would say to me, “I wish I’d come to Davis, Malm sooner,” because he had been at big firms, small firms, his own firm, and he said, “This is the best place to practice.” This firm treated him so well when he was sick, sent him meals, sent him cars to go to his treatments at the hospital. And when he said that, I thought, “Yeah, when my kids get a little older, that’s the firm for me.” And it’s bittersweet, I ended up actually replacing David Rapaport.
Lindsay: Oh, wow.
Tamsin: Because, yes, I joined this firm on January 9th, 2012, and he passed away on January 13th.
Tamsin: So, he was a great mentor, and I was just so delighted to be able to follow in his footsteps, but a huge loss.
Lindsay: Of course. Yes, it sounds like it, but what a sort of beautiful way to honor his legacy, too.
Tamsin: Yes. Well, people here remember him. They’ll never forget. This is a guy who, when he went on vacations, would visit courthouses around the country. He loved the law.
Lindsay: That’s wonderful. You have to love somebody who loves the law so much they’ll do that.
Tamsin: Really, that’s what he did on vacation. It was hilarious.
Lindsay: That’s not the first time I’ve heard of someone doing that.
Lindsay: Yes. There’s other lawyers I’ve heard of doing that, too.
Tamsin: I got to say, I love being a lawyer, but I would not do that for my vacation.
Lindsay: No, me neither. Sometimes you need a break from the law.
Tamsin: Yes, there are other things in this life.
Lindsay: That’s right. That’s right. You need to shut that part of your brain off so that you can use it when you’re at work.
Tamsin: Although, as you know, as a lawyer, you don’t shut it off very much, even on vacation.
Lindsay: It’s true. It’s true. I’m often trying to lay down and relax, and I’m thinking about the ILN, and I’m like, “No, stop it.”
Lindsay: Now is not the time.
Tamsin: Well, you do an amazing job and you’re very invested in your job. And I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know about you, but sometimes the best ideas come to you when it’s kind of on the back burner and you’re not focusing on it.
Lindsay: That’s true. It is true.
Tamsin: Yes, that’s my experience.
Lindsay: And you’re like, “Oh, that’s the idea. Yeah, that’s the thing I need to do.” It’s true. So, what would you say is something people misunderstand about your field of work?
Tamsin: Two things come to mind, neither huge nor earth-shattering. One is that I think some people still don’t understand that employment law is truly a specialty area and that the law is complex and the issues that arise in litigation are unique. There are corporate lawyers who try to do employment law. There are litigators who try to do employment law.
Oftentimes I find myself on the other side of the V from some plaintiff’s lawyer who thinks that they can do employment law and that it’s just personal injury, and it’s not. It really is a specialty. And I feel like more and more, over the years, over the decades, general practitioners understand that they need to get an employment lawyer for those matters.
The other thing is, I cannot tell you how many times over the years, and it still continues, people call and say, “I know this restrictive covenant isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. Non-competes aren’t actually enforceable, right?” And I don’t know why people have this idea. Certainly, there are a lot of restrictions on non-competes now, and they’re generally not favored.
If you can protect your business in a way that’s less onerous for the employee, that has less impact on their future earning, such as a non-solicitation provision or non-poaching provision, that’s definitely preferred. But non-competes are alive and well, and as long as you comply with the requirements for them, they are absolutely enforceable.
I don’t know why people don’t seem to get that, but for years and years, I’ve heard this from people like, “Nobody actually enforces these, right?” Or “No court is going to enforce this, right?” And I say, “No, that’s definitely wrong. These are binding, enforceable provisions if they’re done right.”
Lindsay: Right. Right. Maybe it’s just wishful thinking. It’s that they really don’t want that to be the case, and so they believe that it’s not.
Tamsin: Well, I mean for employees, and I do counsel executives, which may be the case. But I think for employers, they’re missing a tool in their toolbox. Or maybe you’re right, maybe in a way it’s wishful thinking because they don’t want to deal with it, they don’t want to have to enforce it. But it can be very important to enforce those restrictive covenants when someone leaves because you, as a business, have a right to protect your market share-
Lindsay: Of course.
Tamsin: … and to protect your confidential information, your relationships. So, it’s something that you have that you can use.
And oftentimes I see my clients decide to enforce it, not necessarily only because they feel that that particular employee who has departed is going to harm their business, but also because they want to set an example. And once you do it and enforce it, other people will understand that it is enforceable, and they have to take it seriously.
Lindsay: Of course. Of course. Absolutely, which makes a lot of sense. What would you say is the most important lesson that you’ve learned over your career?
Tamsin: Well, the first is relationships are the most important thing, right? Relationships with other colleagues, like the ILN, is such an amazing example of that. I had a matter last year, yes, last year, it was in 2022, and it was an international matter. It had to do with enforcing a restrictive covenant.
A sales leader left a company in one country in Europe and took a group with him and spread out all over with this group, competing directly with my client. And I was able to, right away, send emails, get on the phone with colleagues in all of the jurisdictions in which I needed help. It was amazing. So, relationships are everything. And of course, relationships with your clients are so key to, as you said before, being their business partner.
The other thing that I’ve learned, and I always tell younger lawyers about this, is, excuse me, when the phone doesn’t ring, enjoy. Don’t worry that the phone will never ring because it will, and you’re going to be slammed. So, if you have a little lull, take advantage of it. Give yourself a little bit of downtime if you can because you need that, you need to restore that energy and refresh.
Lindsay: It’s true. Somebody said recently that every sports player has an off season. And I think there’s this idea that all of us at work are supposed to be on all the time and working at a hundred percent, a hundred percent of the time, and I’ve learned that that’s not sustainable. I did that for 20 years, and it turns out that’s not really a great idea.
And so, if you do have those lulls, it helps you work at a hundred percent when you need to be there and then taken those breaks because that’s better for you to be more … It’s a more natural progression. It’s like the seasons, for those of us that are in the Northeast at least.
Tamsin: Yes, exactly.
Lindsay: We lie fallow in the fall and winter, and then in spring, things pick up again.
Tamsin: Right, reemerge.
Lindsay: That’s right. So that I think is more natural with business, too.
Tamsin: Absolutely, yes.
Tamsin: So, I often give that, actually both of those pieces of advice to younger lawyers, which is relationships are everything, and if the phone doesn’t ring, take advantage of that moment because it’s only a moment and you’ll be busy again soon enough.
Lindsay: Exactly right. Exactly right. So, one question before I ask you my final question, and that is, what does be part of the ILN mean to you? And I think you’ve really indicated it throughout this conversation, but just to sort of sum it up.
Tamsin: I mean, the connections, the relationships that lead to resources, they’re invaluable. I’ve had the good fortune to attend now, I think three conferences, the one in Boston, the one in Milan, and then in Rio this year, and I hope to be able to attend another one soon. We’ll see. But yes, it’s just such a great organization.
And right away, when people new appear, they’re immediately embraced. And it’s, as we were talking about earlier, just such a great balance of having fun together, which creates that bond, and also sharing important information about the practice of law and also the substantive areas of the law.
And I always find in employment law, when I talk to people from other parts of the world, which is so, so cool, that there are things that we have in common and things that are so different that they blow your mind like, “You are kidding. That’s the way it’s done. Oh my God. You have a court for that?” It’s so fun and interesting.
Lindsay: I love that part, too. There are things that are really similar, and then as you say, things that are so different that it’s fun to watch when those conversations happen.
Tamsin: Yes, it is an amazing resource and it’s a resource that we can pass on to our clients. It’s just invaluable.
Lindsay: I’m so glad to hear that. And then one final question to wrap up, and this is one of my favorites, which is what is something that you’re really enjoying right now that has nothing to do with work? It’s always the toughest question.
Tamsin: Here’s another two-part answer. One is my puppy, my dog, Tina. I told you about Tina.
Tamsin: See this, Lindsay, but now I have an iPhone case-
Lindsay: I love it.
Tamsin: … with Tina’s portrait on it.
Lindsay: That’s amazing.
Tamsin: I have two human children and one canine child, and she’s by far my favorite.
Lindsay: Well, that’s because she loves you unconditionally.
Tamsin: She’s great to have around. My kids are adults now, so they’re not as much fun.
Lindsay: Of course.
Tamsin: And the other thing I’d say is I have a home in Florida now, and I spend time going back and forth, which I enjoy that. I work when I’m there. I always work when I’m there. But it’s nice in those winter months that you were just mentioning, to have an escape, go down there for a week or two, and just work from there and be warm, throw on your shorts and go outside.
Tamsin: I hate winter, Lindsay.
Lindsay: You have had so many rough winters in Boston that you deserve it.
Tamsin: Some are worse than others.
Lindsay: Yeah, I remember that one with the snow in the parking lot in June, so I [inaudible 00:34:35]
Tamsin: That was 2015. So, it’s been a while, but yes, everyone remembers that. We were all totally traumatized. Totally. My daughter always hated the winter growing up. And she graduated from college in 2014 and moved to Austin, Texas in January of 2015, literally the day before the big snows came.
Lindsay: Oh my gosh. She got out.
Tamsin: She got out just in time.
Lindsay: Smart girl.
Tamsin: And she’s never coming back. I can tell you that. She loves it-
Lindsay: I have a friend who did the same. She moved to Orlando because she just couldn’t manage the winters in New Jersey anymore.
Tamsin: And some people love it. Some people love winter.
Lindsay: I love it. I love it. Although we don’t get that much snow here at the beach, so …
Tamsin: So, you’re on the Jersey Shore?
Lindsay: I am. I am, yes. So, the humidity means sometimes we get snow, but mostly we don’t. It’s pretty mild.
Tamsin: Right. Right.
Lindsay: Yes, I’m lucky.
Tamsin: Well, here in Boston, I can see the harbor from my office right now and I can see the harbor from my condo. We get less snow near the water, definitely. In state, inland, they get a lot more.
Lindsay: Same, same. Although, you’re more north to me, so you all get much more snow anyway.
Tamsin: Although less and less.
Lindsay: That’s right. Same here. The joys of climate change. I know.
Tamsin: Mostly bad.
Lindsay: I know.
Tamsin: Great to talk to you.
Lindsay: On that note, thank you very much for joining me. And thank you very much to all of our listeners. We’ll be back next week with another guest. And in the meantime, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. And thank you very much, Tamsin, for joining us.
Tamsin: Thanks, Lindsay. Always fun to talk to you.
Lindsay: Yes, it’s always fun to talk to you, too.
Tamsin: Take care.
Lindsay: You too.